Nah these EF engines are solid as, bit of filth ain’t gonna stop it. 
How it drives will depend on the engine and gearbox combo. Sure an EJ would fit but if you have an original EF gearbox it’ll drive like ass because the gearing is made for high revs. One of my Mira’s used to have an 850cc ED/EF Frankenstein engine and it was a good torque setup but the 660cc gearbox was really not right as it held it way to high in the revs compared to where it made its torque and power. Depending on what EF engine you start with an EF-JL would probably be a really nice option compared to something like an EJ that would always have that not quite right feel without changing entire gearbox setups etc.
It all depends on what you’re actually trying to do but without any specific information from you I can just give you general stuff that relates to my experience with L200 Mira’s so far.
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I don’t understand why you talk about the EJ as if it cannot rev - the stroke is a mere 81mm, that’s good for 9000 RPM no worries. I’m sure it’s not cammed there from the factory, but after confirming it physically fits the next step would be a mild NA build with cams and manifolds and tune to suit.
I LOVE high RPM. My truck revs 8000 RPM My Suzuki 8400. My Stagea 7500. Whatever goes in will have to rev hard to match its stroke, no more, no less. For a while nothing is going in, but chances are I’ll want it a bit faster than it is now. We’ll soon see.
I feel like I’d rather have no turbo though, in this particular application. I like them, but it seems like the wrong thing for little thing.
From what I can remember the EJ rev limits somewhere near 6800, not sure never had one. But I’ve driven one and it makes its power much lower where the EFs make their power way higher due to being absolutely gutless at low revs. Sure you could make an EJ rev there but it all depends on how much effort you’re willing to put in. Most Daihatsu people are looking for the cheapest and generally easiest way to make small car go fast and sound cool. The effort it would take to make an EJ rev to 9000 and be useful there you might as well just turbo it and for all that you might as well just bash some clearance and go K3. Most engine swaps are dictated by whichever engine was cheapest at the wreckers lmao. Forged internals and stuff are available for Daihatsu engines if you know where to look or get custom stuff made but it’s pricey, Malaysian stuff is usually pretty hit or miss quality wise but at the end of the day it depends on how much time, budget and effort you have.
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Also yes the EJ stroke is 81mm but the bore is 72mm so it’s made to basically be a torquey stroker and a 3 cylinder as well so the rotating balance is rubbish. If you want to rev it much higher than factory you’re gonna have to do quite a bit of work. I couldn’t imagine the EJ I drove revving that high, the thing was absolutely flat on the torque until about 4500rpm than it was just nothing until it rev limited. My factory EF-JL would decimate any N/A EJ and my N/A EF would honestly probably pull away from it in 2nd and 3rd gear. A turbo EJ would leave both in the dust tho, many people have boosted EJs with very good success.
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Sounds like your the one EJ you had an experience with was a dud? Or perhaps the seven or so EF-ELs I ahd were duds? The whole “opinion” thing needs to be put to rest with a dyno comparison.
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Well I mean it was a bog stock Sirion with like 200000ks and wonky wheel alignment but it was enough to put me off my idea of EJ swapping my 4 door. Not a bad engine, it was smooth and very nice torque but it was flat and boring. It felt like my old ED/EF Frankenstein but with 2500 less rpm. The EF is an older, crappier design but wringing it’s little neck is damn good fun and I am a P plater so I’m still in the redline daily habits 
My first EJ-DE experience in the L200 was going from a 27fwhp ef-el that was lucky to chirp the tires (had a trxx box with viscous lsd) to a bog std ej-de from an L700 that would wheelspin both tires in 1st, 2nd and 3rd. The clutch lasted one day with the EJ-DE before it would no longer clamp (disc was fine). The only tuning for both was with closed loop O2 and adjusting fuel pressure. I spent a lot of time seeking to develop ef-el with cams, headers, ecu tweaks, serious head porting and so on. Each modification to the EF-EL required earlier ignition timing and gains diminished or dropped off or were below expectation. Yes the EF-EL would rev. I live at the top of a notoriously steep and long road “Henry Robert Dr”, the EF-EL were a disappointing experience. Retard the cam 7deg, if you slot the cam timing trigger you can play with that advancing too or be left. You’ll end up with a rev happy EJ that won’t fall over and it will be happy at 8000rpm for long periods. BTW, the ef-el gearboxes are not close ratio and have a super short first, they do though mostly have a low final drive.
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Alright, time for a bit more disclosure, I’ve been involved in tuning about 50 cars to various degrees from solo to over the phone advice, the majority on an ECU that I designed from scratch.
Torque: Obvious, but this is displacement based - you only get to choose where you get it, high RPM or low RPM, you choose that with cams and manifolds and static compression (as different to dynamic). 1.0 = 50% more torque than 0.66 - end. There are variations on this but if you’re talking 12v to 12v then it’s going to be very close to accurate.
Power: Torque at RPM. That’s it. So what contributes? Making more torque at higher RPM means breathing well at high RPM and although the small bore large stroke engine will do worse in this regard, it will still do well enough to put a solid smile on. Small bore means less valve area to fill that now deeper chamber in the same short period of time, a very short period when revving hard = less cylinder fill = less torque up high = less power per displacement. But recall, 50% advantage up front.
On the flip side, if you have a short stroke and big bore then you run into high RPM power problems too due to mixture distribution time and flame speed and flame front propagation time - it’s harder to light off the spark early enough to get peak cylinder pressure where you need it to make good torque at high RPM. You end up with pinging and detonation from the early timing before you can apply the pressure to the crank that you otherwise could.
Can the bigger engine by reliable at higher RPM? Sure it can, depending on:
- Valve retainers, collets, valve mass, spring strength, seat pressure, etc
- Rod bolt strength vs rod and piston mass - at some point the bolts snap and you have a bad day
- Stroke - rods get an easier time as do big end bearings, if the stroke is shorter
- Rod length - and this could be the clincher for the 1.0 - does anyone know what it is? And in relation to crank stroke? ie, rod ratio - longer rod for shorter stroke suits high RPM better in multiple ways
Can you make some good torque up there irrespective of bore/stroke ratio? Sure:
- 4v / cyl heads are always capable of good torque at every RPM
- Inlet manifold design, runner length, throttle body, etc
- Exhaust manifold design, runner length, merge collector design/fab quality, etc.
Engines are just air pumps, difficult to truly optimise but easy to partially optimise for a goal.
I love every post in this thread - thanks to everyone, it’s a wealth of good info and data points even if you don’t agree with each other.
My original question was about extra bulk of the 12v top end and block deck height of the 1.0 vs the crappiest 660 - I imagine, as always, the 4v design is a fair bit taller/bulkier than the 2v or 3v design - that may be a deal breaker irrespective of capacity - we’ll see. Deck height - may be taller on the longer stroke engine - this could be an issue too, esp in combination with the 12v head.
I’ll have it in 3 or 4 weeks so can really start to poke around and measure up. If anyone knows the owner of a 1.0 in Auckland that’d be awesome and they’ll get to see my new toy before I post it online as a bonus
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I believe the EF-ELs I played with were falling over power wise primarily due to the dome piston which had terrible flame front problems, second issue is the head port design (I have cut up/cross sectioned ef-el heads and ej-de heads and done serious porting to both [not necessarily larger] blending and doing as much as possible to reduce boundary layer air separation).
I did have all the EJ rod length in my head and was ready at one stage to order some Argo rods and use short pin center to deck distance forged GSXR600 pistons as I calculated 9000-9500rpm. You can do mix and match sets of arp headbolts (VW or Audi internal wrenching nuts work) or std 350zx bolts have enough thread such that you can cut them down and tap oversize threads in the block. The bucket valve train will be better at these revs than the single cam on rocker design of the ef-el.
External dimensions? Ahh, height specifically! The EJ is a bit taller. How much? I never did measure.
just to throw a couple of numbers in the mix so you have a small Idea of some measurements
ejde 1.0 is a bore and stroke of 72mm x 81mm, Dished pistons
efel 660cc is a bore and stroke of 68mm x 60.5mm, Domed pistons.
ed engine is a bore and stroke of 66.6mmx81mm, dished pistons.
Both the ejde and the efel both have 4 valves per cylinder
efel is sohc
ejde is dohc with the 2nd cam being a slave cam
Ed engine is 2 valves per cylinder and is sohc.
An ed20 in a move will hit rev limit at approximately 5500rpm with factory ecu. Ed10 are carby so no limiter.
For external dimension’s of engine’s in engine bay’s L200 came with efel and ed10 with that in mind with the edje and ed stroke size is the same and width doesn’t seem to pose a problem.
Things I have notice over the years and is no way a tech record, just observation’s
ejde’ are more prone to doing big end bearing’s than the efel or the ed10. My guess with this is the ed and the ejde cranks are pretty much the same but one is cast in the ed and I believe the ejde is forged ( i could be wrong) and the extra weight and force of the larger piston and crank of the ejde helps in deterioration or malfunction of the bearing’s in the ejde hence the reason the factory limits of the ecu’s for ejde and also the ed20 is much lower limiter of 5.5 to 6.5k than the efel which from memory can have an 8k limiter for the series 1 and 9.2k for the series 2.
( I belive the later L251 has a higher limiter with the ejde than the earlier ejde)
Personally, I think all have their place depending on what you want and like.
Going back to your original post and question whether you use an efel, an ed a franken or an ejde your gonna have similar amounts of room in your engine bay for turbo applications. turbo’s have been previously put on all of the above and all fit within and engine bay. Just practise your tetra!
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Thanks for that, mate, good post 
About big end life: longer stroke results in higher forces for a given RPM even if all else is equal and although the stroke of the EJ is still short enough for 8000+ RPM warranty/redline it’s entirely possible that the bearings are simply too small for that and the bottom end was designed a LONG time ago for shorter stroke lower force applications.
Some additional data points: 86mm stroke engines typically have a redline around 7k and a cut in the 7200-7500 region - that’s with a factory warranty and factory ECU - I’m comfortable revving those to 8k with appropriate supporting mods, but not much more.
Cast vs Forged: I don’t know for sure about THESE engines but MOST Jap engines even back into the 80s do not use cast IRON cranks they use cast STEEL cranks and that’s TOTALLY different - cast steel is EXTREMELY tough stuff and you can make bucket loads of power 2-4x factory on a good engine with a cast steel crank. Forged cranks ARE stronger, but not hugely and it’s not a big concern in the crank shaft.
Fear of castings comes mostly from ancient/crappy UK and USA engines - some of them used cast rods and crudely cast pistons. A piston from a factor 120hp Volvo redblock engine from the early 80s which is definitely not forged can easily be reliable with 4x the power or about 500hp being pushed through it. Most jap pistons are hypereutectic not cast. Every jap rod I’ve ever seen is forged. Rods matter but forged rods is standard, it’s just whether the rods are chunky for boost or skinny for revs and trying to stuff boost through a skinny NA rod never works out well, ha ha (ask me how I know).
In short: don’t worry about the crank material it’ll be fine either way.
A couple of engines that have small big end bearings and big end issues fairly regularly are:
SR20DE - for efficiency
EJ20 (subaru) - for packaging and efficiency
these are fine in normal applications, but don’t cope with poor maintenance or abuse well at all.
Older engines with bigger bearings make less power for various reasons and one of those is bearing and ring friction - bigger bearings and conventionally tight rings. Bigger big end bearing surfaces = more ability to take load without pushing the oil film out of the way.
Hence the usual mods to raise oil pressure a bit to cope with increased output.
Seeing those numbers I have one thing to say: NO to the ED - worst combination of dimensions by far - would not rock one.
Update from me: Will be paid for and picked up and oil changed for 5w50 penrite full zinc PAO/Ester genuine synthetic before driving home on the 25th - cannot wait. Visiting various people starts same day and will continue on the regular until I feel like it’s enough, then I’ll post it online
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Another data point: I have very subtle big end rod knock from my Suzuki K10A turbo 1.0 4 cylinder - I rev it to 8400 every time I drove it and it’s had the best oil money can buy in it for a long time. I don’t know what it had before me, though - I should rebuild it but it’s low down the list right now.
After owning the beast for a week I conclude that without supporting mods I will be staying 660CC for now. There will be changes to the 660cc engine to facilitate more fun and I need to do a bunch of research before I make any decisions or buy any parts.
Vehicle is plenty fun to chuck around as is for the most part so no big deal - but for sure want to improve it (as I do with every one of my 20 odd cars).
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Two months with it now, came to write what I already wrote. Would like to source a 64hp 12v NA screamer version of the 660 and swap it in though. I’ll do a project thread if/when I start buying parts for it. For now though, I have a list of minor stuff to fix. I bought some 5mm spacers for the front as the wheels are wrong and the tyres rub on the springs at low and medium speeds and cause a loud annoying resonance. I’ll go and collect those tomorrow and fit them before the drive home Should be all good. M12 x 1.5 pitch studs, 9 full turns of engagement as is, 9x1.5 = 13.5mm of engagement as is. Minus 5mm is 8.5mm engagement or about 5.66 threads of engagement. Ample for such a light car for now.
Driving it on the motorway is full throttle and full RPM I should fit a tacho to it at some point and find out what those RPMs are at various speeds, but have not had a chance yet.
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