So I have been wondering lately, how do each of these cars stack up. Both have a reasonable amount of power that can be achieved, the L700 being a more commonly worked on car these days with the k3 swap and what not.
But the question I’m really asking is how do they compare handling wise?
My thoughts are, the charade has a single wishbone Style front control arm, sway bars front and rear if you put a front one in and have an independent rear. I’m not hugely familiar with how the L700 chassis is put together but know it doesn’t have IRS or a rear sway bar and has a different setup in the front.
What’s people opinions? Having not driven an L700 can anyone speak from experience as to how well they handle and how they compare to a g20x series?
Beam rear axle often means little on a FWD. The L700 sway bar doing duties as radius rod is a bit more of a concern.
Really you need to drive both. My opinion (not something I am prepared to argue with anyone about) is that the G200 will be more comfortable day to day. L700 prob cheaper to hit off with performance upgrades. L700 perhaps more chic with some of the “cool, image, stance, pretentious, look at me” crowd. G200 a safer unibody if you need it to transport a small family around (and better chassis as a base).
Interesting point you make about the radius rod. I was unaware that the front suspension in the L700 did not have one. Is it ridiculous to suggest some fairly precise fabrication could see one installed? And would the advantage be worth the effort?
I agree with you’re suggestion to drive them both. Unfortunately L700s of any discription are few and far between in my town. There is an auto one sitting at the car yard I could take for a spin though. Way over priced however.
I agree with what you’ve said @Mr_Gormsby, would love to hear from anyone else who wants to chime in on the matter too.
Drive the auto. I am reluctant to be a spoiler and tell you how they “feel” in comparison as this might give you a bias immediately. The radius rod change is possible. However, legally such needs engineer approval via the mod plate process. Technically the issues that I found when considering this for my L200 is getting the sway bar relocated and prob connected directly to the strut leg, and getting the suspension pivots correct for anti lift (front pivot has to end up quite low - someone please correct me if wrong).
I agree with @Mr_Gormsby the G200 has what I believe to be superior suspension set up. I’m not saying the L700 isn’t any good But it would seem the accountants had more say over the engineers and designers for the L700/M100/M101 chassis.
I have had the L700, I now own a M101 Sirion GTVi, and previously owned a G100 which has better suspension the the two I previously mentioned.
I prefer the G100 in suspension. The G200 I haven’t experienced but there was an improvement in front suspension, and I dare say a tad better.
Between the G200 and L700, I’d have the GTVI Sirion - sorry just fantastic value for money(and I don’t need any other projects right now).
Only thing that worries me with the g200 is the head gasket problem of the H series, but yeah the sirion gtvi would be best
@Mr_Gormsby, interesting, what main benefits will adding the radius bar have if it was to be done? Also, what’s specifically makes the gtvi such good value for money. Obviously the engine is a big part of that, but considering how common the k3 swap is now the advantages would surely be less?
Does the suspension differ much between the sirion (m101) and L700?
@DaleJeffree, agreed based on what I’ve seen/read the g200 series has quite good suspension for its age/price range, but the thing that seems a let down to me is exactly what @Mokeman said, engines aren’t the greatest and swaps are all custom except the same series stuff.
I have only ever owned one chazza and it was a G100 with the CB23.
It was a interim car at some point… it was in relatively good condition and “handled” like a small car.
I now have the Cuore with Sirion M101 Struts and a pedders sports spring which only dropped the car about 1 1/2" but has stiffened it up enough to make it feel less awkward on the road, it certainly is no race car, its a fun car with limits and that’s half the joy of owning these cars.
I have owned a few L200s, a L70 (TRXX), an L700 and an L880K. There all a bit awkward… The Sirion GTVi is probably the best out of all of the Daihatsu’s I have owned.
You’ve had your share @FrAsErTaG haha. Good to hear some first hand knowledge. So what did you like about the sirion? Can you pinpoint anything that makes it feel better than the others?
Where the sway bar has to serve duties as radius rod also it the centre of the bar between the bushes which locate it to the chassis is suppose to twist only under wheel movement. But it will flex fore and aft under acceleration and braking also. So castor changes when this happens. I had an RX2 years ago and it was plagued with this problem. Typically serious MkI and II Ford Escorts have a rearward facing radius rod added. The theoretical pivot point of the sway bar as radius rod is hard to plot and does change a minute amount. Sway bars flex, radius rods should not.
Siron has much wider track, and I believe stiffer chassis. L700 lighter.
Had a H series engine once. Gave it away. Decided there was a heap of modern tech 16v 4cyl Toyota motors that would see bigger dollar for dollar improvements. If I’d kept going that direction I’d have looked into a Toyota 4age 1600cc, 5E-FHE 1500cc, 1zz and so forth. I’d talk to a mod plate engineer. But I’d bet one of those engines in the bay with Toyota removed and Daihatsu embosed on the tappet cover and no one would know. I’ve done some strange engine conversions in my life (for example the weirdest was a triple weber Nissan L26 mid mounted into a RX2 four door Cappella). So I am dumb enough to bother with strange conversions and have the engineering facilities to do so.
Each and every Sirion GTVI I have driven have been a joy. I could live with one each and every day and would drive 1000km happily. I’ve driven K3 L700s and they are a heap of fun but not something I’d want as my only car - maybe 20yrs younger I would but not now.
I think its the fact that my one had
15inch wheels, lowered legally.
2 inch exhaust (custom made… not great)
I guess its just that bit heavier and slightly bigger that it tended to have less under steer then the Kei chassis.
Everyone is going to have there own opinion and I think it comes down to how well you learn to drive your small car then anything else. If you know the car is happy to travel this speed around a bend without issue and you are still capable of controlling the car to a complete stop if required then you will have a whole heap of fun in either options you proposed
you can do some great things such as @Mr_Gormsby demonstrates!
@Mr_Gormsby, I agree with what you’ve said about the modern engines and it’s something that I circle back to often when thinking about my particular charade. There are much more efficient (both in power and economy) engines out that that would fit with some custom work. However for me, I already have a hde from the missus old car, so cost wise it makes sense for me to use it. Wether or not it will stay in the car forever/I keep the car for a while, is another question . I’ve only just caught the Dai bug. Haha
As for why you loved you sirion @FrAsErTaG, they are a well put together car, well optioned and generally hassle free, for a car. I think it’s safe to say that no one component or part of the sirion is any “better” than the L700, but rather that the car as a package works very well and they have a fantastic price point for what you get.
I’m letting my mind run wild here, but let’s say money wasn’t an issue (you know when we all win the lottery ). What’s people’s thoughts on something like a custom front subframe with double wishbone arms, IRS in the back and some fancy suspension bits under a L700 chassis. Now that surely would be a whole lot of fun!
Going wild on an L700 you could stick with the beam rear end. They work well enough and once stiff enough it will have little travel much of the time in hard corners you’ll have a rear wheel off the ground. For the front the strut can be made to work well enough too, just look at some of the older WRC tarmac fwd rally cars - wow. Would just need to have an A arm added to the sub frame.
306 WRC tarmac cars had strut front and torsion beam rear.
Interesting. Literally been watching some rally videos since you mentioned them @Mr_Gormsby. Love watching them, so much skill.
I understand that torsion beam works well fwds, only mentioned it’s earlier because I think it would give some performance gains as well as improved ride, a pipe dream really. Haha
The a arm you mentioned adding, would that be in place of the current lower control arm?
Yes proper A arm replaces the lateral link and sway bar type radius rod.
The independent rear is a direction that might better have effort focused elsewhere. If it was rear wheel drive yes either independent or a four link with lateral control panhard rod or watts link. I’d put time into weight saving and the money into a Xtrac gearbox.
Does anyone have any photos of the front subframe and suspension setup of an l700? I’m intrigued to see just how hard it would be to have something fabbed up. This sort of thing I find very fascinating. Yours thoughts on a proper a arm conversion @Mr_Gormsby? I think the geometry would be a tricky thing to get correct without upsetting the front end.
Oh to have an xtrac, what fun. Haha.
The geometry itself is not to hard. Finding spots to locate that geometry can be the hard part. I have done A arm conversions on other makes of car. First place to start for me was looking at existing arms by exploring each and every front wheel drive at the wreckers (note early Fiesta control arms look like they’d go straight into Sirions to give extra track).
I suppose if you keep all other mounts in their same positions then there wouldn’t be any other issues. When you say fit straight into a sirion are you taking direct bolt on? Wouldn’t that be a score! Haha
From this photo (see below) it doesn’t look like it would be too hard. Now I am no pro at this and have fairly limited knowledge when it comes to suspension ect but from what I can understand if you could find or fabricate an a arm that went between the standard mount and the subframe bolt (circled in red) that maintained the sway bar mount and kept the ball joint in the same spot could that work? Providing it wasn’t too much strain etc for said subframe bolt.
It would obviously require an arm with a single pivot mount attached to the subframe rather than one with two pivot mounts. See below. Am I even correct in thinking these are both a form of a arm?
Single subframe pivot mount:
Dual pivot mount:
Please feel free to correct me if I’m wrong. As I said I’m no pro and would love to learn more.